基督教第一专家：如果你不信神，你需要听这个！
There are worship groups that worship AI because it's got some of the qualities we normally associate with God.
有些崇拜团体在崇拜 AI，因为它具备了一些我们通常与上帝联系起来的特质。
And some people welcome this and say this is the way we should go.
有些人对此表示欢迎，说这就是我们该走的方向。
But the danger is we treat these human robots as if they're conscious beings.
但危险在于，我们把这些人形机器人当成有意识的存在来对待。
This is a seriously important thing and I do feel that the Christian faith has a great deal to say about this
这是一件极其重要的事，我确实觉得基督信仰在这方面有很多可说的。
and it's fascinating to me that you are very religious.
让我着迷的是，你是一个很虔诚的人。
You believe in God because typically I think that mathematicians lean more towards atheism.
你相信上帝，因为我通常觉得数学家更倾向于无神论。
The great pioneers of modern science were all believers in God.
现代科学的伟大先驱们全都是信仰上帝的。
And I've interrogated myself about its truth for over 70 years.
七十多年来，我一直在审视自己，追问它是否是真的。
I've made myself totally vulnerable.
我让自己完全暴露在质疑之下。
And I found that Christ offers me something nobody else offers me.
我发现，基督给了我别人给不了的东西。
Peace in my heart.
是内心的平静。
The peace of knowing that I have real forgiveness.
一种知道自己已被真正宽恕的平静。
Things like for example, God has met people even in death row.
比如，上帝甚至在死刑牢房里与人相遇过。
And I never forget looking through the door for Russian security death row.
我永远忘不了透过俄罗斯安全部门死刑牢房的铁门往里看的那一刻。
I went up to the door and a chap came over and looked at me.
我走到门边，一个人走过来看着我。
He killed 12 women and he said, "I deserve to be here."
他杀害了 12 名女性，他说：「我活该在这里。」
And then his face just bursted into what I can only describe as a ghastly smile.
然后他脸上突然绽放出一种我只能形容为诡异的笑。
And he said, "I met Jesus here and he forgave me."
他说：「我在这里遇见了耶稣，他宽恕了我。」
So on this point of forgiveness with the serial killer be forgiven and allowed into heaven and then how do you know that this thing you've committed yourself to is true?
那么关于宽恕这个话题，连环杀手会被宽恕并进入天堂吗？另外，你怎么知道你为之奉献了一生的这件事是真的？
So I have had several experiences enough to tell me look this stuff is real.
我有过好几次足以告诉我这一切都是真实的经历。
Okay.
好。
So this is super interesting to me.
这真的让我很感兴趣。
My team given me this report to show me how many of you that watch this show subscribe and some of you have told us according to this that you are unsubscribed from the channel randomly.
我的团队给了我这份报告，显示你们当中有多少人订阅了这个节目，其中一些人告诉我们，据报告显示，他们已经自动退订了频道。
So favor to ask all of you.
所以请大家帮我个忙。
Please could you check right now if you've hit the subscribe button if you are a regular viewer of the show and you like what we do here.
如果你是这个节目的常规观众，如果你喜欢我们做的内容，请现在查看一下你是否点击了订阅按钮。
We're approaching quite a significant landmark on this show in terms of a subscriber number.
我们的节目即将迎来一个相当重要的里程碑，就订阅人数而言。
So, if there was one simple free thing that you could do to help us, my team, everyone here to keep this show free, to keep it improving year over year and week over week, it is just to hit that subscribe button and to double check if you've hit it.
所以，如果有一件简单而免费的事是你能为我们做的，为我们的团队、为所有人做的，让这个节目保持免费、让它年年进步、周周精进，那就是点击订阅按钮，并确认你已经点了。
Only thing I'll ever ask of you.
这是我唯一会请求你做的事。
Do we have a deal?
我们说定了吗？
If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do.
如果你做到了，我告诉你我会怎么做。
I'll make sure every single week, every single month, we fight harder and harder and harder and harder to bring you the guests and conversations that you want to hear.
我会确保每一周、每一个月，我们越来越努力地为你们带来你们想听的嘉宾和对话。
I've stayed true to that promise since the very beginning of the D of Sio and I will not let you down.
从《CEO 日记》最初开始，我就信守了这个承诺，我不会让你们失望。
Please help us.
请帮帮我们。
Really appreciate it.
真的非常感谢。
Let's get on with the show.
继续节目吧。
John Lennox.
John Lennox。
Yes.
是。
You've published over 70 peer-reviewed mathematical papers, co-authored two research texts at the um Oxford Mathematical Monograph series, and you've really become a pioneer in many domains through your career.
你发表了 70 多篇同行评审的数学论文，与人合著了牛津数学专著系列中的两部研究著作，你在职业生涯中真的成为了许多领域的先驱。
But for anyone that doesn't know you, what is the most important context they need to understand the reference points, experience, education that you're pulling on that that is going to inform all of the subjects we talk about today?
但对于不了解你的人来说，他们最需要了解哪些背景，才能理解你今天在所有话题中所依赖的参照点、经历和教育？
I mean, I've written a number of papers.
我的意思是，我发表过一些论文。
I got a certain amount of international recognition.
我获得了一定程度的国际认可。
I chaired Oxford and all the rest of it.
我在牛津担任过主席之类的职务，诸如此类。
But I think the real value of that has been the training and logic really saying that mathematics works.
但我认为，这其中真正的价值在于逻辑训练，真正让人相信数学是有效的。
The fact that it works is for me one of the strongest evidences that this is what I call a word-based universe.
它之所以有效，对我来说是最有力的证明之一，证明这是我所说的一个基于逻辑的宇宙。
We can use mathematics to describe things about how the universe works.
我们可以用数学来描述宇宙运作的方式。
Thinking God's thoughts after him, Kepler's famous statement.
用上帝的思想思考，这是开普勒的名言。
But also we've lived to see a biological revolution where we discover biology is word-based as well with the human genome.
但我们也见证了一场生物学革命，我们发现生物学同样是基于语言的，体现在人类基因组上。
And that to me resonates with the explanation given in both the old testament and the new language of John's gospel.
这对我来说与旧约和约翰福音所给出的解释相呼应。
In the beginning was the word.
太初有道。
I um I don't know a ton about the bible.
我对圣经了解不多。
I do come from a religious family.
我来自一个有宗教信仰的家庭。
So do with um right
所以，嗯，好的
we grew up as Christians.
我们是在基督徒家庭长大的。
I think I I lost my faith faith at about 18 years old cuz you know me and my my brothers are extremely good at maths.
我想我在 18 岁左右失去了信仰，因为，你知道，我和我的兄弟们数学都非常好。
They're very rational thinking maybe to a fault and I think maybe I am a little bit too.
他们的思维非常理性，也许过于理性了，我想我也有一点这样。
I am too.
我也是。
You are.
你也是。
This is why I find it so fascinating cuz you know typically the scientific community lean more towards atheism and typically I think that mathematicians lean more towards atheism.
这就是我觉得如此迷人的原因，因为通常来说，科学界更倾向于无神论，我认为数学家也更倾向于无神论。
Just to sense check if that's true or not, we'll throw the numbers up on the screen.
只是验证一下这是不是真的，我们会把数字投到屏幕上。
So I I find that to be a fascinating conversation which I'm looking forward to have with you today.
所以我发现这是一个很迷人的话题，我很期待今天和你一起探讨。
Interestingly, you wrote this book and the word AI is on it.
有趣的是，你写了这本书，封面上有「AI」这个词。
It says God, AI, and the end of history.
书名叫《上帝、AI 与历史的终结》。
Why are you so concerned, dare I say, about artificial intelligence as a leading pioneer in ma maths and sort of philosophical thinking?
作为数学和哲学思维领域的先驱，你为何如此担忧，我可以这么说吗，人工智能？
Well, because I'm interested in the bigger picture, anything that raises questions about the nature of human identity.
因为我对更宏观的图景感兴趣，任何关于人类身份本质的问题都令我关注。
And I was first struck by the drive for artificial general intelligence.
最初让我震惊的是人们追求人工通用智能的驱动力。
It's really become one of the it looks as if it's the prime motivation of people like Sam Alman and so on.
这似乎已经成为像山姆·奥特曼等人的首要动机。
It is really hitting the headlines.
这已经真的成为头条新闻了。
But within that there's the notion of transhumanism.
但在这背后，还有超人类主义的概念。
What does that mean?
那是什么意思？
The idea is that we go beyond the human.
这个想法是，我们将超越人类。
One of our most famous astronomers, Royal, he put it this way.
我们最著名的天文学家之一，皇家天文学家，他是这样说的。
He says in the distant future, it won't be organic brains, it'll be machine brains.
他说，在遥远的未来，将不再是有机大脑，而是机器大脑。
And he seriously believes, as do a number of scientists who are not science fiction authors, that there will be some kind of merger between humanity and machines to have a transhuman, something that's beyond the human and something that is, they hope, super intelligent, got all the human properties and much more.
他认真地相信，正如一些并非科幻作家的科学家所认为的那样，人类与机器之间将会发生某种融合，产生某种超人类，一种超越人类的存在，他们希望这种存在具有超高智能，拥有人类的所有特性，甚至更多。
Now, one of the people who is spreading that kind of transhumanist vision is the Israeli historian Yuval Noah Hari.
传播这种超人类主义愿景的人之一，是以色列历史学家尤瓦尔·诺亚·赫拉利。
And he's written a book called Homodos, the man God.
他写了一本叫《神人》的书。
And that really made me prick up my ears because I know enough about this book here, the Bible, to realize that the drive for humans towards is
这让我立刻竖起了耳朵，因为我对圣经了解得足够多，意识到人类对神化自身的追求
selfdeification.
自我神化。
Yes, making themselves gods.
是的，让自己成为神。
And you see it all through history.
纵观历史，你随处可见这种现象。
The ancient Babylonian emperors were regarded as gods.
古代巴比伦的皇帝被视为神明。
The Roman emperors started calling themselves gods and all the rest of it.
罗马皇帝开始自称为神，诸如此类。
And what Harari says is the 21st century has two big purposes.
赫拉利说，21 世纪有两大目标。
Number one, to solve the problem of physical death as a technical problem
第一，把身体死亡作为技术问题来解决。
to solve death.
解决死亡。
Yes.
是的。
Solve death.
解决死亡。
Physical death is in his view technical problem and we'll solve it.
在他看来，肉体死亡是一个技术问题，我们会解决它。
The second agenda item and he calls them agenda items of the 21st century is to increase human happiness by bioengineering, cyborg engineering, mechanical implants, all this kind of thing and turning humans quote into gods with a small G.
第二个目标，他称之为 21 世纪的议程项目，是通过生物工程、仿生工程、机械植入等手段来增进人类幸福感，将人类引号变成「小写的神」。
In other words, this is the drive for a super intelligent human.
换句话说，这是追求超级智能人类的冲动。
We've only got started.
我们才刚刚开始。
And his point is, and from his atheist perspective, one can understand it immediately.
他的观点是，从他的无神论视角来看，这立刻就能理解。
Evolution, unguided natural processes have brought us to this point.
进化，无引导的自然过程，将我们带到了这一步。
Now, we're going to take it into our hands and we're going to engineer humanity into the future very rapidly to approach this superhuman thing.
现在，我们要把它掌握在自己手中，以极快的速度将人类工程化走向超人类。
Now I hear that and I see that but I see that as huge implications for one of the fundamental teachings that's behind I would argue western civilization and that is the notion that humans like us are made in the image of God as rational moral beings.
我听到这些，看到这些，但我认为这对支撑西方文明的一项根本教义有着巨大影响，那就是像我们这样的人是按照上帝的形象创造的理性道德存在这一概念。
Now, I got into this because some Christian leaders wanted to have a conference on AI and they wanted it introduced from someone who knew something about the teaching of the image of God in Genesis and who had a scientific background and who could perhaps begin to lead them in to what was going on in the AI field around.
我之所以投入这个领域，是因为一些基督徒领袖想举办一次关于 AI 的会议，他们希望由一个既了解创世记中「上帝形象」教义、又有科学背景的人来开场，引导他们了解 AI 领域正在发生的事情。
And once I got into it, I realized this is a seriously important thing because we haven't got to artificial general intelligence yet.
一旦深入进去，我意识到这是极其重要的事，因为我们还没有达到人工通用智能。
That's still a pipe dream, but it's improving all the time, but we've got far enough.
那仍然是遥不可及的梦想，但一直在进步，我们已经走了很远。
that is to what's called narrow AGI which most of the stuff that works is and that is posing a threat to human beings at all kinds of levels and I began to see that that was seriously important for everybody to take on board.
也就是说，到了所谓的弱 AGI 阶段，目前大多数有效的系统都属于此类，它已经在各个层面对人类构成威胁，我开始意识到这对每个人来说都是非常重要的事。
So I wrote two books, one 2020 called uh 2084 is the title of my book, artificial intelligence and the future of humanity and then the publishers asked me to update it in 2024.
于是我写了两本书，第一本是 2020 年出版的，书名是《2084》，关于人工智能与人类的未来，然后出版商让我在 2024 年更新。
So there's a second edition twice as big and it is my main work on AI.
所以出了第二版，篇幅是第一版的两倍，这是我关于 AI 的主要著作。