我们如何在不上市的情况下将 Koch Inc. 做到 $150 billion：Charles & Chase Koch

What an honor to be here. 能来这里真是荣幸。 Thank you for hosting us, Forbes. 感谢 Forbes 的款待。 And welcome. 欢迎大家。 This will be put out as the all-in interview. 这期内容将以 All-In 访谈的形式发布。 So, I'm really excited to share this conversation with everyone on the world on the internet and to get some time with Charles Ko, Chase Ko. 我非常期待把这段对话分享给世界各地的网友，也很高兴有机会和 Charles Koch、Chase Koch 坐在一起。 Chase and I have known each other since 2013. 我和 Chase 从 2013 年就认识了。 Yep. 对。 When we overlapped in the agriculture industry, got to know each other. 当时我们都在农业行业，由此结缘。 We've been business partners. 我们后来也成了商业合作伙伴。 And Charles and I have gotten to know each other a few times over the years. 至于 Charles，这些年我们也有几次交流。 But I'm really excited for this conversation tonight. 今晚这场对话让我非常期待。 So, Charles, thank you for being here. Charles，感谢你来到这里。 Thanks for having us. 感谢邀请我们。 It's an honor. 这是我们的荣幸。 Every few years, a new ad channel opens before the market catches on. 每隔几年，市场还没反应过来之前，总会有一个新的广告渠道悄然打开。 That's axon.ai right now. 现在这个渠道就是 axon.ai。 The AI ad platform behind one of the biggest runs in tech with access to over a billion daily active users. 这是支撑科技圈最大一波增长的 AI 广告平台，日活用户超过 10 亿。 Full screen video ads in mobile games watched for a median of 35 seconds. 手游内全屏视频广告，中位观看时长 35 秒。 Businesses are profitably spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a day on it. 已经有企业每天在上面盈利性地投放数十万美元。 And most advertisers don't even know it exists yet. 而且大多数广告主甚至还不知道它的存在。 The window is open at axon.ai/allin. 窗口期还在，访问 axon.ai/allin。 In Silicon Valley, entrepreneurs and even mature company CEOs always like to learn about the story of other businesses and the success of those businesses. 在硅谷，无论是创业者还是成熟公司的 CEO，都热衷于了解其他企业的发展故事和成功经验。 And I've always felt like Coke Industries was that untold story. 在我看来，Koch Industries 一直是那个没有被充分讲述的故事。 Uh probably the most profitable private family-owned business in the world. 可能是全球盈利能力最强的私人家族企业。 Maybe I'm off on a couple points, but certainly up there. 也许我的说法不完全准确，但肯定名列前茅。 and one of the most impressive business stories because of the evolution of the business, which I'm hopeful we can hear a little bit about how that evolution came to be tonight. 也是最令人叹服的商业故事之一，因为这家企业的演变历程太独特了。今晚我希望能听到关于这段演变的故事。 And just for some statistics, if CO were publicly traded, the revenue would put it easily in the top 25 of the Fortune 500. 从数据来看，如果 Koch 是一家上市公司，按营收算轻松跻身《财富》500 强前 25。 It's a family-owned business based out of Witchah. 这是一家总部位于威奇托的家族企业。 Founded in 1940 by Fred Ko with businesses ranging from energy, agriculture, chemicals, building products, consumer products, even cloud computing and a very active minority investment portfolio with 120,000 plus employees. 1940 年由 Fred Koch 创立，业务涵盖能源、农业、化工、建材、消费品，甚至云计算，还有活跃的少数股权投资组合，员工超过 12 万人。 That statistic might be off across 60 countries. 这个数字在 60 个国家可能有所出入。 very unique operating model which we'll get into today including principles around disruptive innovation of the business reinvesting 90% of profits in new businesses and growth meritocratic values and I'm hopeful that tonight we can take an opportunity to hear about the evolution of the business and talk about some of those principles and maybe we can get started Charles if you could give us a sense of the scale of the business what are the business lines that you operate today and and maybe you know provide a little more color to those highle statistics I shared today. 非常独特的运营模式，今天我们会深入讨论，包括颠覆性创新的原则、将 90% 利润再投入新业务和增长、精英主义价值观。今晚我希望能听 Charles 讲讲企业的演变历程，谈谈这些原则，Charles，我们从哪里开始？能给我们描述一下今天 Koch 的业务规模吗？你们有哪些业务线，能不能在我分享的这些宏观数据上多一些色彩？ I can go back through some of the history and the failures and successes, but uh I I'll go through what we've grown since the early 1960s. 我可以从历史讲起，讲讲那些失败和成功，不过我先说说我们从 1960 年代初到现在的成长。 And then we had uh 30 thou three 300 employees. 那时候我们有大约 300 名员工。 Now we have more than 130,000. 现在超过 13 万人。 and uh in in 60 countries and uh we have uh increased in value 9,000 times over that period. 分布在 60 个国家，企业价值在这段时间增长了 9000 倍。 When did you join the business? 你是什么时候加入公司的？ In 是 1961 full-time I'd been working 1961 年全职加入，之前就在做。 Well, my father uh we lived on a farm and and he told me at age six he didn't want me to be a country club bum. 我父亲那时候我们住在农场，他在我六岁的时候就告诉我，他不希望我成为一个靠着乡村俱乐部混日子的废柴。 So made me work in all my spare time which I hated and and so I was always in trouble and uh and so he was kind of tough on me rightfully so. 所以他让我把所有空闲时间都用来干活，我当时非常厌恶，总是惹麻烦，他对我挺严厉的，其实是对的。 And and thank God he did. 感谢上帝他那样做了。 Years later I I asked him,"Pop, why were you so much tougher on me than you were on my younger brothers?" 多年后我问他：爸，你为什么对我比对弟弟们严厉那么多？ And he said,"Son, you plumb me out 他说：儿子，你把我榨干了 when you came into the business. 你进公司的时候， What was the scope of the business? 当时公司的规模是什么样的？ What was the business operating? 主要做什么业务？ We we had two main businesses. 我们当时有两块主要业务。 One was uh to uh uh design and make uh fractionating trays. 一块是设计和制造分馏塔盘， That is that they separate liquids by differences in boiling points. 也就是通过沸点差异来分离液体的装置。 And then the our largest business was a crude oil gathering system in in Oklahoma. 另一块，也是我们最大的业务，是在俄克拉荷马州的原油收集系统。 And and so so my father uh and I I was uh I had finished just a few years earlier finished MIT and I was uh working for Arthur D. 就这样，我父亲打来电话。那时候我刚在几年前从 MIT 毕业，正在 Arthur D. Little 工作， Little then a leading consulting firm and and I was and and you'll think this is a joke at age 25 I was doing managing cons management consulting. 那是当时顶尖的咨询公司，你听了可能会觉得是笑话，25 岁的我在做管理咨询。 mean that I have to laugh at absurdity of that but I but they were paying me for it believe it or not. 现在想想确实荒唐，但他们真的在付我钱，信不信由你。 So my father called me and he said son uh I want you to come back and join the business and as tough as he had been on me and as I say rightly so uh I declined. 我父亲打电话来说，儿子，我希望你回来接手公司。虽然他一直对我很严厉，正如我说的，其实是对的，但我拒绝了。 So he called me a few weeks later and he said,"Son, either you come back to run the company or I'm going to have to sell it because my health is bad and the companies aren't doing well and uh and I don't have long to live." 几周后他又打来电话说：儿子，你要么回来管公司，要么我就得卖掉它，因为我身体不好，公司也不景气，我不知道还能撑多久。 Uh so I agreed because uh I well for for a number of reasons. 所以我答应了，出于很多原因。 one. 第一个原因。 The first one is uh I got three degrees at MIT and engineering and I sucked as an engineer. 我在 MIT 拿了三个工程学位，但我做工程师很差劲。 I mean, get that. 说真的，就这样。 And what? 那怎么混过 MIT 的？ So, how'd you get through MIT? 那你是怎么从 MIT 毕业的？ Because I was real good at the math and the science and the theory. 但实际动手制造和运营，我不行。 And I was no good at making or operating things. 所以我很快就想明白了，我不适合做工程师。 So, I figured out pretty quickly that I wasn't going to make it as an engineer. 我得当企业家，因为我擅长的是原则，那也是我们能走出去的原因。 So I need to be an entrepreneur and uh and because I was good at principles and that's why we led. 我一直在寻找那些能帮助我做出贡献、取得成功的原则，正是这些原则改变了我们公司。 So I was always looking for principles that would help me uh contribute and and succeed and and and that's what uh that's what transformed our our company. 我一直在寻找能帮助我贡献价值、走向成功的原则，也正是这些原则改变了我们公司。 So you you come into the business couple hundred employees you said at the time 300 employees 你进入公司的时候，你说当时有几百人，大约 300 人， and how did you think was the mandate to grow the business? 你当时怎么看发展这家公司的使命？ Was it just to keep it stable? 是只要维持稳定就好，还是有更大的野心？ No, it was it was 不，其实是 Could I take a few minutes and go through those first two business? 我能用几分钟讲一下前两块业务吗？ Okay, sounds great. 当然，说吧。 Yeah. 好的。 Okay. 好。 The first one was uh uh making fractionating trays, designing those. 第一块是设计和制造分馏塔盘。 Uh we had a president then who who was uh was one of our principles. 当时有一位总裁，他恰恰违反了我们的一条原则， You don't want to be a negative is top down and obsessed with controlling everybody. 不能从上到下只顾控制，让人窒息。 So he would send out a memos every week demanding they on what they spent, how did you spend it on, what did you do, what did you do this right? 他每周都发备忘录，要求追责：钱花在哪里了，怎么花的，你做了什么，这件事做对了吗？ So they were frust matter of fact they started ignoring him and then the whole culture was protectionist that is when you s when they sold the internals for fractionating tower uh they wouldn't tell them the design and well we need to know the design so we can correct it. 结果大家开始无视他，整个文化变得保守封闭，当他们把分馏塔内件卖出去时，客户说我们需要看设计图才能做修正，他们就是不给。 No, they wouldn't give it to them. 就是不给。 And then and then what's even worse to to satisfy the European market, they didn't even build a plant there. 更糟糕的是，为了满足欧洲市场，他们连工厂都没在那边建， They uh they had multiple subcontractors do parts of a tray and then bring them all together and assemble with another contractor. 而是让多家分包商各做一部分塔盘，再汇集起来交给另一家承包商组装。 Now, you can imagine how that was for speed and cost. 你可以想象这对速度和成本意味着什么。 So we were losing our ass if you excuse the expression. 简单说，我们在赔钱，请原谅我的用词。 And so I changed the the management and changed the philosophy. 所以我换了管理层，也换了理念。 Okay, the first thing we're going to focus on is creating value for our customers. 我们首先要做的，是为客户创造价值。 And then then the second thing we're going to empower our employees so they want to to to do this. 其次是赋能员工，让他们真正想做这件事。 And the third thing we're going to be do a plant we're going to build a plant in Italy to satisfy the European market. 第三，我们要在意大利建一座工厂，自己来服务欧洲市场。 we're going to do it all ourselves and uh and so we got became profitable and uh and and then we started adding uh related products and and I I'll get to that later but uh and and and so we started growing. 全部自己来。就这样，我们开始盈利，然后开始拓展相关产品，后面我还会讲到，总之我们开始成长了。 Can I ask a question? 我可以问个问题吗？ Yeah. 当然。 You come in at 25 plus or minus a little bit and you see the problems at the business. 你进入公司的时候大概 25 岁，看到了这些问题，不盈利、管理混乱，然后你推翻了管理团队。 It's not profitable. 公司没有盈利， It's not being well managed and you overturn the management team. 管理也不善，你推翻了管理团队。 How did you have the confidence at this age coming with the experience you had to take that level of action that quickly? 你当时哪来的信心，在那个年纪、凭着那些经验，做出这么大的决定？ Well, I it was life or death. 那是生死存亡的时刻。 And my father said,"You can run this business any way you want. 我父亲说：你想怎么经营这家公司都行， The only thing you need me of my approval on is to sell." 唯一需要我点头的事，是卖掉它。 That's the way he talked me into coming back after I said I didn't want to uh or I wasn't going to. 就是这句话让我在拒绝之后改变了主意，同意回来。 And then and then in 1970, what really helped is my brother, younger brother David uh uh joined the business and then and then he continued that growth. 然后到了 1970 年，真正帮到我的是我弟弟 David 加入了公司，之后公司继续保持增长。