SaaS 末日论其实是金矿——Figma 的 Matt Colyer 这么说
the SAS apocalypse or the next era of software, if you will.
SaaS 末日论，或者说软件的下一个时代。
I'm really excited about it, and I think Figma and a lot of other SAS businesses [music] are, too.
我对此很兴奋，我觉得 Figma 和很多别的 SaaS 公司也一样。
Because like I've worked in developer tools for a long time, and maybe 5 10 years ago, the estimate of like number of developers worldwide was like 25 million, 30 million, 40 million, give or take.
我在开发者工具领域干了很久，大概 5 到 10 年前，全球开发者数量估计也就 2500 万、3000 万、4000 万左右。
I think what's most exciting about this time is that I think it's going to be like a billion, maybe even more than that.
最让我兴奋的是，开发者会涨到十亿，甚至更多。
I think there's this incredible time that we're moving through of product development and really the democratization of technology.
我们正经历一个不可思议的时代，产品开发和技术真正走向了民主化。
I think the end result is that there is dramatically more software out there in the world.
最终结果是，世界上的软件会多得多。
If you're in that space, it means it's a gold mine, right?
你在这个赛道，那就是金矿，对吧？
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Every 是你紧跟 AI 前沿唯一要订的。
If you care about being on top of the latest models and using latest tools, you have to subscribe to Every to separate out the signal from the noise.
如果你想掌握最新模型、用上最新工具，就得订阅 Every，从噪声里分辨信号。
Go to every.
去 every。
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今天就上 to/subscribe 订阅。
Matt, welcome to the show.
Matt，欢迎来到节目。
Thanks for having me, Dan.
谢谢你邀请我，Dan。
So, for people who don't know you, you are the director of product management for developers at Figma.
可能有人不认识你，你是 Figma 开发者产品管理总监。
And I want to start with
我想先抛出一个问题，
I think the big question on everyone's mind.
我觉得这是大家最关心的。
I I should probably say I bought a bunch of Figma like probably like 2 months ago, something like that, uh because there's this whole SAS apocalypse narrative, and what I want to get in detail or in get get into with you.
我得说，我大概两个月前买了不少 Figma 股票，因为有 SaaS 末日论这套说法，我想跟你好好聊聊这个。
I think you have a lot of stuff to share about AI, AI and product management, all the stuff that you've been doing yourself, but also I I'd love to
我觉得你在 AI、AI 与产品管理、还有你自己做的这些上有很多可以分享，不过我也很想
I'd love to start with what is going to happen to SAS tools in AI?
我想先聊聊 AI 时代 SaaS 工具会怎样？
Um and I think Figma's a really interesting example where um there are all these people who are like, "Oh, I I don't have to use Figma anymore."
Figma 就是个很有意思的例子，很多人都说：哦，我不用再用 Figma 了。
There are you know, you guys just launched uh an agent like in your product.
你们刚在产品里上线了一个智能体。
You also have Figma MCP.
你们还有 Figma MCP。
So, if you're transitioning from
所以如果你要从
So, if you're transitioning from a world where you, you know, there was no AI when Figma started to now you're a big scale product and now there is AI, like how does that work and how are you how are you thinking about do we open the product up to agents, do we build our own agent, what's working, what's not, all that kind of stuff.
从 Figma 起步时还没有 AI，到现在你们是大规模产品、又有了 AI，这要怎么转型？你们怎么想的，是把产品开放给智能体，还是自己做智能体，什么有效、什么没用，诸如此类。
I'm really interested in that.
我对这个很感兴趣。
Yeah, I'd love to talk about that today.
我今天很想聊这个。
I think for me it comes [clears throat] from a couple different angles.
对我来说，这可以从几个角度看。
Um, I think the first thing is like the SAS apocalypse or like you know, the next era of software if you will, or maybe it's more of a positive framing on that.
第一点，就是 SaaS 末日论，或者说软件的下一个时代，换个更正面的说法。
Um I'm really excited about it because like I think like I've worked in developer tools for a long time and like you know, maybe 5, 10 years ago the estimate of like number of developers worldwide was like, I don't know, 25 million, 30 million, 40 million, give or take.
我很兴奋，因为我在开发者工具领域干了很久，大概 5 到 10 年前，全球开发者数量估计也就 2500 万、3000 万、4000 万左右。
I think what's most exciting about this time is that like I think it's going to be like a billion, right?
而最让我兴奋的是，这个数字会涨到十亿，对吧？
Like maybe even more than that, right?
甚至可能更多，对吧？
And so like I think there's this incredible time that we're moving through of product development and really the democratization of technology.
我们正经历一个不可思议的产品开发时代，技术真正走向民主化。
I mean there's a lot of catchphrases around like homegrown software and like we can talk about some of that stuff later.
围绕自建软件有很多流行说法，这些我们待会儿可以聊。
Um, but I think the end result is that there is dramatically more software out there in the world.
但最终结果是，世界上的软件会多得多。
And so kind of coming back to your point about like the SAS apocalypse and like what does that mean for companies that have an established product is like if you're in that space like it it it means it's a gold mine, right?
回到你说的 SaaS 末日论，对那些已有成熟产品的公司意味着什么？如果你在这个赛道，那就是金矿，对吧？
That that there's all this opportunity out there and that I'm really excited about it.
外面有这么多机会，我真的很兴奋。
Um, and I think, you know, Figma and a lot of other SAS businesses are too.
我觉得 Figma 和很多别的 SaaS 公司也一样。
And so I think the other part, you know, kind of to more of the negative sentiments of the discussions you see online is around like well, what if I could just vibe code every app, right?
另一部分，就是网上那些比较负面的声音，大概是，要是我能氛围编程做出每个 app 呢，对吧？
And I think what's really interesting about this time is like for whatever reason like January of this year was like the point at which it like became the larger narrative.
有意思的是，不知为何，今年 1 月这事突然变成了主流叙事。
Like I've been doing this stuff for like probably 18 months or 2 years.
我做这些大概有 18 个月到两年了。
So like I was already like yeah, let's go build everything.
我早就觉得，行，那就啥都自己造。
Um, but I feel like the whole world's caught up in January of this year and I was like yeah, let's go build everything and like people are.
但今年 1 月全世界都跟上了，我说来吧都自己造，大家也真在造。
And I am excited to see what happens because like I know my own personal journey through that is like it's really fun um to build the initial version of it, right?
我很期待接下来会怎样，因为就我自己的经历来说，做出第一个版本真的很好玩，对吧？
And like I actually built one of my own agents 2 years ago and the very first one was like an email agent.
其实两年前我就做了自己的智能体，第一个是邮件智能体。
And I had to look back as like how it started and it was like literally this like terrible Python script.
回头看它最初的样子，就是个糟糕的 Python 脚本。
And it kind of was rickety and it like sometimes the replies didn't work and it was like, "Okay, but like and like the larger narrative here is like software companies build more than just like code, right?
它摇摇晃晃的，有时回复不管用，但更大的道理是，软件公司造的不只是代码，对吧？
Like I there's a reason that I pay for Gmail to like operate my email.
我花钱用 Gmail 管邮件是有原因的。
It's like it turns out it's kind of stinks when you're like the SMTP version needs upgraded and you're like, "I don't care.
结果发现，当 SMTP 版本要升级时，你会觉得挺烦，心想我才不管。
Like I just want to receive email."
我只想收个邮件。
And so like as I've had to run my own agents for my personal life, like I've had to experience that pain of like the product I want doesn't exist and I built it and now I get the ongoing cost of it and like I'll be honest, I'm buying more software these days than I ever did before cuz I'm like, "You know what?
为了自己的生活跑这些智能体，我体会到那种痛，想要的产品不存在，我自己造了，现在却要承担持续的维护成本。老实说，我现在买的软件比以前任何时候都多，因为我会想，你知道吗？
That that tool seems cool.
那个工具看着不错。
Like I'm just going to pay somebody else to run my agent for me."
我干脆付钱让别人帮我跑智能体。
I totally agree as someone who has vibe coded my fair share of tools.
我完全同意，作为一个氛围编程做过不少工具的人。
A, yes, the personal maintenance, but B, I vibe coded tools that we have we released into production.
一来确实有个人维护的问题，二来我氛围编程的工具，我们真上线到了生产环境。
And let me tell you, uh it's not it's not as simple as saying like fix this bug.
跟你说，没那么简单，不是说句修掉这个 bug 就行。
[laughter]
[笑声]
Um and I do think that that's I do think that's saying that that is that is really missed in um in the quote-unquote SaaS-pocalypse discourse.
我确实觉得，这一点在所谓的 SaaS 末日论讨论里被严重忽视了。
I got to say though, if you if one of the first things you did was an email agent, I'm super curious how you're doing your email right now because I feel like things just got to a point where you can like kind of just do your email without doing your email and I'm so excited about it.
不过我得说，如果你最早做的之一就是邮件智能体，我特别好奇你现在怎么处理邮件，因为我感觉现在已经到了一个程度，你能不亲自动手就把邮件搞定，这太让我兴奋了。
Yeah, I don't
嗯，我不
Yeah, I can tell a little bit more about the story.
我可以多讲讲这个故事。
So like the problem that started 2 years ago as um I was using chatbots at work cuz like at that point that was kind of like the primary interface.
这事两年前开始，当时我工作中用聊天机器人，因为那基本是主要的交互方式。
Like agent usage was not really a thing yet.
那时还没什么人用智能体。
And so my my my personal life, like I have kids in three schools.
在我个人生活里，我有孩子分在三所学校。
And if there are any parents out there listening, you know what it's like to get the PTO emails and they're like what is the um what's the theme for today?
如果有家长在听，你懂收到家长会邮件是什么感觉，比如今天的主题是什么？
And like you know the feeling of like a missed like that this is like the worst parent feeling in the world, but like if you miss the spirit day because your kid didn't do crazy hair day, like you feel like you have failed at life.
你知道那种错过的感觉，这是世上最糟的家长感受，要是因为孩子没弄怪发造型而错过了主题日，你会觉得整个人生都失败了。
I will tell you that and having done it more than once.
我跟你说，还不止一次。
And so I was like I can't I can't miss another one.
我想我不能再错过了。
And I was like, you know what I have?
我想，你知道我有什么吗？
I have and it was because I had to track, you know, 15 emails a day.
我得每天追踪差不多 15 封邮件。
Like you think we produce a lot of email in corporate America, wait till you get to the PTO emails you get at school.
你以为美国职场邮件多，等你收到学校的家长会邮件再说。
[laughter]
[笑声]
And so I was like, you know what?
我就想，你知道吗？
I can't read all these, but who can?
这些我读不完，但谁能读？
Agents.
智能体。
And I was like, why can't I just do this in, you know, one of the many agent platforms out there?
我想，为什么不用现成的某个智能体平台来做呢？
And I was like, the missing part here is like I just want to hook it up to email.
我想，缺的就是把它接上邮件。
And so the very first first version of it was just literally like grab an email inbox, look for the top email, and literally paste it to like one of the LLMs, and like dump the response back.
最初的版本就是抓取邮箱，找到最新一封邮件，粘贴给某个 LLM，再把回复倒出来。
And um I know you like to talk a lot about prompts, and like my favorite prompt in those days was basically like forward the email, and it would just be extract the facts.
我知道你爱聊提示词，我那时最爱的提示词基本就是转发邮件，然后让它提取要点。
And it was always shocking to me that I would send like a multi-page email and get like three bullet points back.
总让我惊讶的是，发去好几页的邮件，回来就三个要点。
That is yeah, I I remember those days.
是啊，我记得那些日子。
Uh like the the wiring up and the copying and pasting, and I feel like that's so far away, but it's only like a year or two ago.
那些接线、复制粘贴的活儿，感觉很遥远了，其实才一两年前。
Yeah, well and then like, you know, to to your point about agents.
对，然后说回你讲的智能体。
So then I added a memory system, right?
我加了记忆系统，对吧？
Cuz like to your point, I've like haven't fully automated and like not sure that I trust it to reply on my behalf, but like having the memory system was like a total unlock.
正如你说的，我没完全自动化，也不确定能信它替我回复，但有了记忆系统是个彻底的突破。
And like now how I've evolved it is like I have a daily
现在我把它发展成了每天
So like this is a interesting thing.
这事挺有意思的。
Like Claude Code I feel like hit on this, but like the proactive part is I think the thing that really like set it on fire.
Claude Code 我觉得也抓住了这点，但真正点燃它的是主动推送。
And my version of that was like I would have my agent like take a summary of all that stuff and send me an email every day at a certain time.
我的做法是让智能体把那些内容做成摘要，每天定时给我发封邮件。
And like the unlock for me was like instead of having to go to a tool and ask for the thing, like it was just like it would show up.
对我来说的突破是，不用再去某个工具里问，它直接就送上门了。
Now not that it was particularly smart, it would just do it the same time every day, but like I mean, where agents are going is like much more proactive.
倒不是说它多聪明，只是每天同一时间做，但智能体的方向会越来越主动。
And then like, you know, thinking about like, do I need to reach out and contact my owner and let them know what's going on.
然后再想，我要不要联系我的负责人，告诉他们情况。
So, if if that was the like where you were a couple years ago, like what are what are the, you know, what are the workflow things that you have now that you rely on that you're excited about?
如果那是你几年前的状态，那你现在依赖、又让你兴奋的工作流有哪些？
So, it seems like there's some sort of brief functionality you're using in Claude Code, but what are a couple of things that, you know, you've been tinkering with that you like?
看起来你在 Claude Code 里用了某种简报功能，那你还鼓捣过哪些喜欢的东西？
I think one of the things I'm trying to figure out like in my work life is around summarization.
我工作中一直想搞明白的一件事是关于摘要。
Like, I think part of the job is like understanding an immense amount of information and then like figuring out like, how do I filter that information?
工作的一部分是消化海量信息，然后弄清楚怎么过滤这些信息。
And like, how do I like imbue my agents with that skill of like, this is the thing that matters and this is doesn't.
以及怎么让智能体也学会分辨什么重要、什么不重要。
And then like, it's actually like a really hard problem cuz like, there's a lot of stuff that you read and that the first pass you're like, oh, that doesn't matter.
这其实是个很难的问题，因为很多东西你第一遍看时会觉得，哦，这不重要。
And then it will matter like 3 days later.
可三天后它又重要了。
And it's like, how do you describe like, which things matter and which things don't?
那你怎么界定哪些重要、哪些不重要？
It also feels like the agents are a little bit like, you know, one of the things I will have
也感觉智能体有点，你知道，我会让它做的一件事是