Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder
We start a mantra in the company.
我们在公司立了一个信条。
We want to be a jazz band, not a marching band.
我们要做爵士乐队，不做方阵乐队。
I love that.
我太喜欢这个了。
It's like a self-reflecting value thing.
这像是一个自我映照的价值观。
It's auto equilibrium with me.
对我来说是自动平衡的。
So, it's like, okay, I'm a jazz band person.
所以，就是说，好，我是爵士乐队那种人。
So, we've been hiring more and more jazz band person.
所以，我们一直在招越来越多爵士乐队风格的人。
Also, AI happened in the past two two and a half years.
另外，过去两年两年半，AI 来了。
So, more jazzband people can really shine during this moment.
爵士乐队风格的人在这个时代真的可以大放异彩。
Okay.
好的。
So, we had manager mode, we have founder mode.
我们经历了管理者模式、创始人模式。
There's this new mode.
现在还有一种新模式。
What should we call it?
我们叫它什么？
Jasmo, maybe.
也许叫爵士模式。
That's not bad actually.
其实还不错。
Hey everybody.
大家好。
Today we have Ivan Jawan, the co-founder and CEO of Notion.
今天我们请来了 Notion 的联合创始人兼 CEO Ivan Zhao。
I like to think of him as the refounder.
我喜欢叫他重建者。
Uh he started the company a long time ago and in 2015 he didn't have part of market fit.
他很早就创办了这家公司，2015 年还没找到产品市场契合。
He and his co-founder moved to Kyoto of all places and kind of restarted the company and rebuilt it.
他和联合创始人去了京都，在那里重启了公司、重建了一切。
After that, they got product market fit and it really took off.
之后他们找到了产品市场契合，公司真正起飞了。
He did the same thing in 2023 around generative AI in an offsite down in Cancun and literally restarted the company and in my mind he's the canonical example of how a SAS company can move and become an AI company.
2023 年围绕生成式 AI，他在坎昆的一次线下活动里做了同样的事，字面意义上重启了公司。在我看来，他是 SaaS 公司转型为 AI 公司的典型案例。
So that's super interesting.
这本身就很有意思。
The second thing that's interesting is just hearing how he builds the company.
第二个有意思的地方是听他讲怎么建公司。
He's very AI native in the way he organizes the company, the way he compensates people, the way he builds today.
他在组织架构、薪酬设计、产品构建方式上都非常 AI 原生。
And it rhymes a lot with some other CEOs that have interviewed like Jack Dorsey a couple weeks ago.
这和我采访过的其他几位 CEO 很像，比如几周前的 Jack Dorsey。
I hope you like it.
希望你喜欢这期节目。
What do you think of my outfit, by the way?
顺便问一下，你觉得我今天的穿搭怎么样？
I think your outfit it's uh your pants could be looser.
我觉得还行，就是裤子可以再宽松一点。
Looser.
再宽松一点。
Okay.
好的。
On the bottom or just in general?
是裤脚的部分，还是整条裤子？
In general.
整体。
Uh I like your sneakers.
不过我喜欢你的运动鞋。
I don't know what they are.
不知道是什么牌子。
Okay.
好的。
They're Italian.
意大利的。
Premiada.
Premiada。
That's cool.
很酷。
You're known as a very fashionable fellow.
你以穿衣有品位著称。
Where where you shop these days here in New York?
你现在在纽约这边都在哪里买衣服？
New York has a good store near here in like Soho Traca called Lakasan.
纽约这里有家不错的店，就在 SoHo 附近，叫 Lakasan 的那种。
Um not like a designer designer, but more like a European, easy to wear.
不是那种大牌设计师，更偏欧洲风，穿起来轻松随意。
Um
嗯。
I like the vibe.
我喜欢这个感觉。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Um I got up my game.
嗯，我在提升自己的品味。
Ivan,
Ivan，
just channel some nice.
就像汲取那种优雅。
Let's go shopping.
我们去逛吧。
You want to go shopping?
你想去逛街？
It's right around here.
就在附近。
Afterwards, we can go.
聊完我们可以去。
Okay.
好的。
Hey, I want to talk about CEO stuff, not just fashion.
好了，我想聊点 CEO 的事，不只是时尚。
I've been doing this sequoia thing for a couple years and a lot has changed in CEO.
我加入 Sequoia Capital 有几年了，CEO 这件事变化很大。
Like the whole manager mode, founder mode thing happened and now it's founder mode and some new mode seems to be happening.
管理者模式、创始人模式先后出现，现在好像又有新的模式在涌现。
Let's just reflect back when Paul Graham's founder mode memo came out.
回想一下 Paul Graham 的创始人模式备忘录刚出来的时候。
My my person
我个人……
When was that?
那是什么时候来着？
Since 2022, right?
2022 年以来，对吧？
2021.
2021 年。
No, no, no.
不不不。
It's like it was later than that.
应该比那晚一点。
It's like 2024.
大概 2024 年。
My reaction, by the way, was relief because I was a quirky kind of founder mode type of person.
我的反应是松了口气，因为我本来就是那种偏创始人模式的怪人。
Always being everyone's trying to talk me out of doing that.
一直有人劝我别这样做。
What was your reaction?
你当时什么反应？
I didn't have too much of a reaction to be honest.
说实话，我没太大反应。
Yeah,
嗯，
nowadays, uh, you know, Jack Dorsey kind of redesigning his company to put AI in the middle and Brian Armstrong doing the same thing.
你看，Jack Dorsey 把 AI 放到公司中心来重新设计架构，Brian Armstrong 也在做同样的事。
My sense is you're kind of heading this way as well.
我感觉你也在朝这个方向走。
Um can you talk about your journey there, your company's journey?
能聊聊你和公司在这方面的历程吗？
What's new?
现在有什么新进展？
How are you thinking about the organization?
你怎么看待组织架构？
How's it changing?
有什么变化？
Yeah, my journey actually I have a small detour off the founder mode um which is like try to delegate trying to grow your notion has very been small as a company in the early days like we had product market fit 2019 early 2020 uh we're sub 10ish people 2019 and um company become profitable because we're small right um
嗯，我的历程其实有点小插曲，就是尝试委托放权，试图让 Notion 以传统方式扩张。Notion 早期一直是小团队，大概 2019 年到 2020 年初找到产品市场契合，2019 年人数不到 10 人，因为规模小，公司一直是盈利的。
did you raise venture in the early days or you bootstrapped it
你们早期有没有融风投，还是自力更生？
we raised venture
我们融了风投。
you
你们……
Okay, that must have been tough.
好的，那肯定挺难的。
Um, was tough like first five years just seage money dragged us for five years.
挺难的，头五年就靠种子钱撑了五年。
Yeah, HubSpot was like that.
对，HubSpot 当年也差不多。
Took us a long time to get the product market.
我们花了很长时间才找到产品市场契合。
It's very tough.
确实很难。
But
但是……
yeah, it's a different type of tough compared to now.
和现在的难是不一样的难。
It's back then there's no product market fit.
那时候是没有产品市场契合。
It's despair.
是绝望。
You just black.
脑子里一片黑。
You don't know where to go, right?
不知道往哪走，对吧？
Um so we have been very small from the get-go and we sort of taste the sweet of it because it's you're small you're profitable easier to raise money
我们一直是小团队起步，也尝到了它的甜头，规模小、盈利、融资更容易。
you're default alive and um we've been resisting growing team size and and during co a lot of companies really blew up
有默认存活的底气，我们一直抵抗扩张。疫情期间好多公司大爆发。
remember that right
那时候你应该记得。
I'm sure you did
你们肯定也经历了。
we relatively yeah blew up
我们相对来说，嗯，也爆发了一波。
you got to product market fit at the right time
你们正好在对的时间找到了产品市场契合。
we grow to product market around the same time um there's a lot of eyes that you got to grow so we did grow um relative to other company still resistant to grow a lot uh in terms of headcount.
我们大约在同期找到，外部压力很大说要增长，所以我们也确实长了一波，但相比其他公司，我们在招人这块一直比较克制。
Um but that's the moment I sort of learned
就是在那个阶段，我有了一个认识：
oh you need to delegate need to have introduced in professional manager management
要开始放权，要引进专业管理层。