all kinds of famous companies. The thing 各种各样的知名企业。而那个 that destroyed them was not competition. 摧毁它们的，并不是竞争。 Their very success became a liability. 恰恰是它们的成功，成了自身的包袱。 I want to hear the OpenAI versus 我想聊聊 OpenAI 和 anthropic story. Dario was a first-time Anthropic 的故事。Dario 是个初次创业者， founder. Wasn't a hot company at all. 当时公司根本不热门。 The boom hadn't happened yet. Chat GPD 热潮还没到来，ChatGPT hadn't been invented yet. Nonetheless, 还没出现。尽管如此， they were true believers in this safety 他们真心相信这个安全 mission. And so, one of their investors 使命。于是，他们的一位投资人 suggested they come talk to me. I told 建议他们来找我聊聊。我告诉 them, "Look, if you don't get this 他们："听着，如果你们处理不好这件事， right, here's what's going to happen." 就会发生这些。" They were very determined to do 他们非常坚决，一定要 something about it. They wrote into 采取行动。他们写入了 their charter. Anthropic has directors 公司章程。Anthropic 在其营利性董事会中设有 on its for-profit board who are 若干董事，由 appointed by and are accountable to an 一个外部受托人团队任命并向其负责， outside group of trustees who are AI 这些受托人是 AI safety experts who do not have equity in 安全专家，在 Anthropic 没有任何股权。 Anthropic. Whenever you see Anthropic do 每当你看到 Anthropic 做了 the right thing, like when they refuse 正确的事，比如因为认为某个模型 to release a model because they think 太危险而拒绝发布， it's too dangerous, think about how much 想想这要付出多大的代价。 that's costing them. 那代价可是实实在在的。 This new book, Incorruptible, is about 这本新书《Incorruptible》，讲的是 helping you protect what you've built. 如何帮你保护自己所建立的一切。 What is it that you need protection 你需要保护自己免受什么威胁？ from? We all know this force. I call it 我们都知道这股力量。我把它称作 the force that no one controls but 一种没人能掌控、却 everyone obeys that tends to drag 总在牵着所有人走、却把 organizations down into mediocrity to 组织拖向平庸， the point that we lose control of them. 直到我们失去对它的掌控。 What's a broadstroke solution to this? 有没有一个宏观的解决方案？ Harder is easier. If you're willing to 越难越简单。只要你愿意 be principled in your decision-m you 在决策上坚守原则——你 will get these unexpected rewards. But 就会得到意想不到的回报。但 most leaders when asked to defend their 大多数领导者被问到如何捍卫自己的 principles can't do it because they've 原则时，根本说不出来，因为他们从小 been taught ROI based thinking, 被灌输的是 ROI 思维、 shareholder primacy. That's the path of 股东至上主义——那是追求 maximum profitability. That's nuts. 最大利润的路，简直荒唐。 Today my guest is Eric Reese, author of 今天的嘉宾是 Eric Ries， the most influential and impactful book 创业史上最具影响力、 in startup history, the lean startup. 最举足轻重的书《Lean Startup》的作者。 Today he is back with a new book 15 时隔 15 年，他带来了一本新书， years later called Incorruptible: Why 叫《Incorruptible： Good Companies Go Bad and How Great 好公司为何走向堕落，伟大公司如何保持卓越》。Eric Companies Stay Great. The way Eric 把这两本书的关联描述为：《Lean Startup》 describes the connection between these 帮你建立一家成功的公司， two books is that the lean startup was 而这本新书 about helping you build a successful 是帮你保护 company and this book is about helping 你已经建立的一切。Eric you protect what you've built. Eric 写这本书，是因为他见过太多 wrote this book because he's seen way 创始人失去对公司的掌控， too many founders lose control of their 最终对结果 company and end up being very 深感失望、心灰意冷。 disappointed and depressed about how 这不是常常被提起的话题，但 things turned out. This is not something 几乎每个成功的 that you hear a lot about, but it's a 创始人都会面临这个问题。 problem that basically every successful 而且基本上每个成功的创始人都会遇到。Eric founder will face. Eric shares a ton of 分享了大量有力的故事、 powerful stories and specific tactics 具体的策略 and very specific advice for what you 以及非常实用的建议，告诉你作为创始人 need to understand and do as a founder 需要了解什么、该做什么， if you want to build something lasting. 才能建立持久的事业。 Before we get into it, don't forget to 正式开始之前，别忘了 check out lennisproductpass.com 去 lennisproductpass.com for a year free of the hottest and most 领取一年免费体验——全球最热门、 well-crafted AI products in the world, 最精心打磨的 AI 产品， available exclusively to Lenny's 专属于 Lenny 的 newsletter subscribers. With that, I 新闻通讯订阅者。话不多说， bring you Eric Reese. 我来介绍 Eric Ries。 Eric Ree, thank you so much for being Eric Ries，非常感谢你来到这里， here and welcome back to the podcast. 欢迎再次回到播客。 Ah, it's an honor to be back. Congrats 很荣幸能回来。恭喜你 on everything that's happened since I 自从上次来了之后 was here last time. 发生的一切。 Wow. Thanks, Eric. So for people that 哇，谢谢，Eric。对于一直活在石头下的人， have been living under a rock, you 你大名鼎鼎地 famously wrote the lean startup uh 15 写了《Lean Startup》，距今大约 15 years ago at this point, maybe the most 年了，可能是有史以来 impactful, successful founder startup 最有影响力、最成功的 book out there. And it feels like over 创业类书籍。感觉这 15 年来， this 15 years, if you think about it, 如果你回想一下， it's it's gone through all these waves 它经历了各种各样的浪潮—— of just like this is correct the way to 时而被奉为圭臬， do it and no, this completely wrong. Why 时而又被彻底否定，说这根本行不通。 would anyone build this way? This 为什么还有人要这样做？这 doesn't work anymore to okay, this 套路已经过时了，到最后又变成： actually is right. I was actually just 它其实是对的。我当时 thinking about this as I was preparing 正好在准备我们这次对话时想到了这件事。 for our chat. It feels like the way the 感觉顶尖 AI 公司现在的构建方式 top AI companies are building now is 其实就是精益创业。比如 actually exactly lean startup. Like I 我刚在播客上采访了 Claude Code 的产品负责人， just had the head of product of cloud 就在上次节目里。看看 code in the podcast. Cass Cass 她们的运作方式—— the way they operate. Okay. We're going 先发 MVP，他们不叫那个名字， to ship the MVP. They don't call it 但本质上就是先发 MVP， that, but we're going to ship the MVP 叫研究预览版。先推出去，